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Somewhat stable Solid StateFriday, October 9. 2009Trackbacks
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It's funny that you have written this article today. Yesterday I was searching for a SSD drive to use in my home server as L2ARC, and I found the X25-M to have the best performance/size/price ratio, within my budget.
If the drive doesn't prove it's worth in the server, I could always use it in a laptop instead, and replace a dusty old 4.200 RPM drive with a new SSD drive.
I'm using it as L2ARC too. In my environment i've got such stat: reads_from_l2cache/reads_from_zpool ~ 30-35% It's a fileserver with network output approx 1Tb per 24 hour.
Can you send me the output of kstat | grep "l2" ? Would give some interesting insights.
l2_abort_lowmem 464824
l2_cksum_bad 0 l2_evict_lock_retry 167 l2_evict_reading 3 l2_feeds 227964 l2_free_on_write 42583 l2_hdr_size 130732896 l2_hits 13598085 l2_io_error 0 l2_misses 418 l2_rw_clash 418 l2_size 79277771776 l2_writes_done 110368 l2_writes_error 0 l2_writes_hdr_miss 123 l2_writes_sent 110368
It's a box runing FreeBSD 8.0RC1 ZFS pool version 13. I'm getting cache device usage stat via
#zpool iostat -v 1: capacity operations bandwidth pool used avail read write read write ---------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- data 1.58T 242G 51 0 6.49M 0 da2 807G 121G 21 0 2.74M 0 da4 807G 121G 29 0 3.74M 0 cache - - - - - - da3 74.5G 0 182 63 22.4M 7.98M ---------- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Redirecting it into file and then analyzing it with awk: #awk ' /da3|data/ {total[$1] +=$4} END {for(i in total) {print i, total[i]}}' /mnt/3000/tmp/iostat da3 5.77363e+06 data 1.74182e+07
You got more balls than me to put a RC version of FreeBSD 8.0 into production. Well, I guess using OpenSolaris 2009.06 carries its own risks too.
As to Joerg's comments, I will come back in a few months when the X25-E G2 gets released, then he will have no more arguments against moving to X25-E, other than the real intention to preserve the double stacking of Stec premiums. If anything, Sun should start contacting Intel for samples of G2 drives. So far, the general criticisms of Sun's flash initiatives have been that ZFS is top notch, but the hardware choice is definitely political. Now that Samsung has come out saying that they have SSD issues at 32nm, what Michael Cornell said about lithography deathmarch was simply vendor specific. Also Sun gambled a lot by using a proprietary form factor: SODIMM. And choosing a "Marvell" SSD controller isn't exactly a top notch decision either.
Well ... i don't think it makes sense to discuss about this topic with you. We have pretty much different opinions about IT.
I've seen to many customer grade devices diffusing into enterprise space and i saw many of them failing under real enterprise workload. I hate this attitude "Just throw enough devices onto the problem" just to get them into enterprise. That may work in at the enthusiasts level, perhaps at an university where labour is relatively cheap. Or perhaps for an startup that has to move as much investments into the future as possible, but have to get going. But definitely not at the core of an enterprise that has to earn money. 0. The decision in favour or against a certain component isn't done by looking on the datasheet. I know that the collegues of the fishworks team did extensive tests and the realworld mixed workload performance benchmarks were significantly in favour of the STEC8. I know you think we just choose components by political reasons to maximize margin but that's bullshit. Of course Sun wants to earn some money. There are several reasons to choose a component (deliverability, supportability, fits to specification, real world performance) and one of the least important one is the margin. 1. I wrote at several occasions, that an SSD should be as nearest as possible to the CPU. Even the switch in an external casing introduces latency, thus you your limited to the 6 slots. 6*32 is 192 GB instead of 600 GB now. Or 6*64. 384 GB. 2. Of course: When a X25-E G2 gets the super caps, Sun should have a look at them. And i'm sure they will look at them. And perhaps they will use them. But there has to be done much more than just availability. There has to be guaranteed capability to deliver. The firmware has to be reasonably bug-free. Just a hint, after it's introduction it was harder to get an X25-E than a live Pershing for the former Warsaw Pact states. And that wasn't the case, because everybody wanted them. I would even think that my collegues choose a next-gen SLEC SSD in the future with higher capacities like the 200 GB variant and STEC doesn't stand still. I think there will be higher capacity chips in a STEC drive, too. The Intel 256 GB variant is due for Q2CY2010. That's quite a time in the future. Reasons for staying from my perspective: The combination of STEC and Sun HW is well understood, debugged and tuned. That's knowledge you have rebuild when swapping to a different vendor with totally different properties. 3. Sorry, but it's still a tough decision. You should ask yourself why pretty much everybody uses STEC SSD at the moment. EMC uses STEC, Sun uses STEC, IBM uses STEC, the SSD in the HP EVA is STEC. Pillar uses STEC Mach-8 after using X25-E (just do a short search for Pillar and X25-E). Especially the last vendor shows, that there were attempts to use X25-E for enterprise storage purposes, but not very successful ones. A STEC has 2.8 million hours MTBF, the X25-E is rated a 2 Million. The X25-M is just qualified for 1.2 Million hours. The X25E has a UBER of 1*10^15 whereas the STEC has a UBER of 1*10^20. The X25E is said to take a 5/6 hit on performance when used without write-cache. In earlier versions of the X25M Intel talked about an endurance management feature, that kicks in after certain timespans of using the device out of specification. It wasn't documented, what the devices does in this case, perhaps it slow down writes. Interestingly they took this out of the datasheet in the last iteration. At the end this argument sound like the people arguing about a professional graphic card with certified OpenGL drivers for 150 Euro more, buying a software for 10.000 Euros and then complaining about errors and problems. 4. I'm pretty sure that Intel will dominate the SSD market with all it's market and marketing power and will drive the current kings of the hill into niches. But that moment isn't here. And it will take some time to get there. 5. Regarding X25-M: The L2ARC is a cyclic buffer. While prolonging the endurance of the single disk in a 20 disk cluster, your SSD should die pretty much all at the same day (well, almost) like flies. 20*34 TB. Hmm ... 680 TB. That isn't that much at a real busy storage system. But wait ... you can't reach this point ... the drives will be just much slower to keep you in the 20GB limit. 6. I'm pretty sure that an X25M can be used servers with really special workloads, for example when you have a database that changes seldom. For example a large database with you will daily with new data for decision support for example. The X25E is a good general-purpose device for servers. But for a central storage device with changing and mixed workloads, several different workloads i would still choose the Mach8. 7. I don't understand your reasoning at some places. For example: At one time you suggest that we are limited by LSI chip, but just a comment later you suggest plugging 10 disks into a single enclosure that just have one 4-lane connector at SAS 3 GBit/s? You have just totally oversubscribed the cabling here. Given the fact that a single SAS-Connection just gives you 150.000 IOPS you just threw at least half of the maximum possible IOPS. That's not balanced. 8. There are several reasons why the FMod was designed exactly this way. Most of them surround about the question "What do you need to saturate a SATA channel?". From there the FMod was designed. We can stop the argument here. We have different views to the IT business. And as i will be unable to convince you from my perspective, you will be not able to convince me from your point of view. So any further discussion about this topic is superfluous. You should just consider something for your future: Don't think everyone around you is a complete idiot. Just do me one favour: Before reiterating your prices at Dell/HP and comparing them with Sun List prices, please just talk with a Sun Sales Rep. Especially in your professional area, Sun has a very interesting pricing. And please stop to compare el-cheapo shack prices with a Tier-1 vendor.
Joerg:
It is set then? If Intel X25-E G2 gets released, Sun will use them? (I don't think you have the say in this. If anything, I doubt this will be the case for reasons I already discussed) I hate it when you think people who use X25-E or X25-M or Dell/HP gears are "el-cheapo" vs Sun's so called "tier-one". The only difference is that Intel is profitable. Dell and HP are profitable. Sun is the one in the toilet. Not because that Sun doesn't have good technology, but because Sun's retarded attitude and business mindset. The reason why Intel/Dell/HP are profitable is because their pricing is transparent, and don't add "0"s on the list prices. Think about it. People should understand what I am talking about. It is not to aggravate you or anything. I want Sun to survive and do well. In order to do that, Sun must drop Stec, which really represents the attitude that Sun's still selling Sparc kind of hardware, which we already know is pretty much dead, no matter what Larry Ellison says in the media.
At the beginning of this discussion, i thought you have a point, but now i have to recognize that i just wasted my time with someone who seems to be on the war path. I just assume you already made your point http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showpost.php?s=7f1cbfca1e813fe10ecf6e39499f61ec&p=6335469&postcount=19 and at other locations. IT looks like you are widely considered as an Intel shill with a tendency to insult people. With "tshen83" as a google keyword your war path through many forums in favour of intel is really impressive.
The Tier-1 thing: HP and Dell are Tier-1 vendors as well. But when i wrote you that an harddisk costs pretty much the same i've got this insulting comment: "That's why you guys are sick fockers, chargin 500-600 for a 1TB drive. Most people who use Dell and HP source their "addtional" drives from newegg." Newegg counts as an el-cheapo shack in my world. Yes, you are right about the point that i'm not in the fishworks product team, but i know them as technically very knowledgeable persons. But i think it's reasonable to assume, when the x25e fullfills all technical requirements and there isn't a better drive, then they will look at it, if it's a good choice. When you think Sun just chooses HW just because of the possible margin. Think it that way. I would now just politely ask, that you refrain from commenting in this blog, as would like to write articles and tutorials instead of answering to an Intel shill and having fruitless discussions.
Joerg:
This is insulting, calling a ZFS evangelist an Intel shill. Sun can sit there giving away the one last good thing(ZFS) to FreeBSD and OpenSolaris, and burn 100 million a month, it is not my problem. I am not going to lie, just a few years ago, I had over 7 Athlon XP CPUs just in my room. Now I have 4 Intel machines in my room. I praise what is good, and I call shitty things shit as I see it. I am an Intel schill? You should really apologize to me, since none of my comments have been targeted at you at the personal level. Depressing. That's the last word I would leave here.
The gap between 20 GB a day and 1 TB a day is very big. The X25-M would be nice for HD-videorecording, but 20GB are about 4 hours of HD video.
If you use timeshifting a lot, 4 hours a day are not that much.
This might be a stupid question, but I am thinking about a computer shutdown. The data is flushed out to the SSD and the computer switches itself off via ACPI. How can I be sure that all the data has been written to the flash part of an SSD before the powerdown also turns off the SSD?
I am honored to be that "reader". I would like to address 3 potential use cases.
1. X25-E as ZIL. Yes, it doesn't have super caps. Are you sure the next gen 34nm X25-E g2 wouldn't have caps? Once the X25-E g2 gets the caps, STEC ZeusIOPs will lose its advantage completely. Even without the supercaps right now, X25-E offers decent boost to writes. Certainly for the dollars you spend on it. Hint, X25-E G2 is very close to release. 2. X25-E as L2ARC I would love to see a benchmark shootout between the X25-E G1 64GB against the Stec 100GB Mach8 SSD. Ultimately, you are IO limited by the LSI 1068E in the 7410. Plus Stec Mach8 is spec'd to do only 100MB reads. Just from specification, it is 1/2 the speed of the X25-E. 3. X25-M as L2ARC. Where is L2ARC persistence? Once that gets into the OS, whatever X25-M caches is warm, thus, reducing the writing to L2ARC. Let us assume this situation right now: X25-M will break in one year in the datacenter under heavy L2ARC usage. So what? Even if Intel doesn't give you a new one within warranty period, you are out $230 a drive. Look at the Stec 100GB. Sun charges $5400 dollars for the Stec 100GB readzilla. Even if it can last 3 years, assuming linear depreciation schedule for the Stec, you are talking about $1800 per year to use it. $230 a drive that breaks in a year or $1800 a year to use the Stec for 3 years. That is a tough choice isn't it?
One more thing to add to the X25-M L2ARC use case:
I don't want to see you come back and say people cheap out on MLC. BS! People still spend money. For $5400 100GB Stec SSD, I am putting 20x Intel X25-Ms into 2x HP MSA50s, giving me a 1.6TB cache for my 2TB workload. Each L2ARC device failure only accounts for 5% of cache miss, and they get replaced quickly, without impacting performance much. Are you sure a single 100GB SLC Stec on LSI 1068E can outmatch 20x Intel X25-Ms driven by two Adaptec IOP348 controllers?
You're mixing up the -E and -M so much in this post I can't tell what you're talking about.
At IDF Intel said that the X25-E write cache is protected, but maybe they're talking about the X25-E G2. Also, Intel says that you can increase endurance of the X25-M by 3.5X by lowering its capacity slightly; the resulting price/performance/endurance seems to destroy STEC.
What about hiding the Intel SSD's behind a RAID controller ? That should give you the best of both worlds ? Battery-backed NVRAM for writes and SSD speed for reads ....
A RAID controller has an certain budget of IOPS it can process, of course you can't overload it with 1 disk but with 6 disks the stuff may look different depending how much money you invest on your RAID controller, futhermore it adds latency thus reducing the advantages of L2ARC
It makes more sense to use this combination for slog devices. I can afford to loose an L2ARC device but I cannot afford to loose write transactions.
I recently bought gear for a new ZFS storage system and I could get 2 4-way servers with 4 x 2.5 Ghz AMD Quad Cores, 128 GB DRAM, 2 x 15 disk diskarrays (including disks), LSI 1078 based RAID controllers AND 6 Intel SSD's for ~1/4 of what a 7410 would cost my - even if I would purchase it using the Sun partner program. I can live without analytics since I am able to write my own D scripts for whatever information I need from the system. The only real loss is the lack of clustering but that's something I am working on. With such a large saving I am able to deploy and / or stockpile as many SSD's and RAID controllers as I would like. It might not be a 7410 clone but 80% is all I need.
That was the thing i've tried to explain TS. The 7410 and something he build or the filer you build addresses pretty much different markets.
I'm fine with people not needing Analytics and high end performance and building their own ZFS filer with cheaper hardware (of course as long the server is from Sun It's the same in presales sitation: Do you want the all-inclusive variant or just the components? Do you want the S7000 or should we deliver a server and a support subscription for OpenSolaris 2009.06 or Solaris? There are many companies that doesn't have the knowledge or don't want to build up the knowledge how to create a filer (at the end it's not the core competency of companies). Many companies even deny the usability when you havn't a BUI to work on the system. They just want a filer as a appliance. Ready to plug in power and network. I think the market of the Sun Storage 7000 line is more the market that purchased NetApp before and not the one that build his own filers. BTW: For a cluster ready self-made sLOG i've used a small server with COMSTAR and Gigabit-Ethernet recently with a small SSD (i needed the server as Sun Cluster quorum-server otherwise)
Exactly - NetApp is a prime candidate for suffering from the S7000 impact on the market.
I never said that I did not need high performance ? As a side note - we will probably replace a largish EMC CX3-80 with a 7410 cluster in the near future since a homebrew solution simply is not good enough when we are talking about thousands of Exchange email accounts. Actually I find this one of the major strongpoints of Open Storage. I can build something for next to nothing, play with it, deploy it and than reuse what I have learned to get the most out of a commercial solution. No matter how simple analytics makes stuff - you still need to understand the foundations of ZFS, NFS & CIFS in order to make the most of it ...
Sun has some serious issues they have to work through right now. On the software side, they kick ass. They have ZFS, DTrace, FMA, Zones, MySQL, which are all top of the line implementations. The problem is that they give all of those away for free to OpenSolaris and some to FreeBSD. Now to commercialize and monetize the technologies, they chose to pick the most non-commodity parts to maximize margin(ie, STEC, Hitachi UltraStars, ...) So what happens is that they tag on a fancy UI based on DTrace, call it Analytics, and mark up the hardware that comes with it 10x the market value for OpenStorage to amortize human cost. This strategy has never worked for Sun and most Sun people are in denial over that fact.
Instead of going with a full commodity value strategy, they are trying to relabel Dell and HP as some sort of "second rate" gear, or label newegg as a shack, which is bull shit and hypocritical. Instead of helping people spread the word for ZFS, they freaking call their most active evangelist an "Intel shill". Even in Jeff Bonwick and Bill Moore's recent Deduplication talk video, Bonwick said that MLC X25-M 80GB is a perfect L2ARC candidate because you don't care if it fails anyways. Not only that, from a depreciation perspective, in one year, you are going to upgrade to the next version of X25-M G3 anyways, so people really don't care if those SSDs break in a year. The problem is that there is a monetization conflict between the sales department and the engineering department. And Jeff Bonwick is right. ZFS was designed with commodity parts in mind, which handles the fault conditions properly and assumes that hardware underneath is broken, so why the heck go against the design principles of ZFS? *Disclaimer: I am a paid Intel schill. But I have done more work evangelizing ZFS than most Sun salesman. So I prefer to be called a Sun schill if anything.
I thought you didn't want to write something in this blog? I think you have made your point already.
Joerg: you got some serious issues you need to work through man. I said it many times, you still haven't figured out if I am a friend or a foe, which is depressing. You can't handle constructive criticism. Trying to shut people up isn't exactly a victory, so let us not bull shit each other and just exercise our freedom of speech. Look at the comments in this post, and see how many people are already using the X25-M as L2ARCs? Those are all lost market share because Sun doesn't offer them a solution. BTW $45K for a 480GB SLC F5100 is a joke($80+/GB). I already predicted on StorageMojo website, that a full 2TB F5100 would cost $150K or so, which is totally killed by the X25-E in JBODs.
Why not design a Thor style 2U vertically mounted chassis for mounting 80x 2.5 inch SATA X25-Es? You can still have ESMs in those to preserve the data integrity. I just don't get it sometimes.
Why no 2 RU Thor with vertically mounted X25E? That's really easy: 2 * 1 Rack unit = 88.9 millimeters, X25E 101.5 millimeters.
I guess mounting it on 100mm probably makes more sense. I could care less if it was 1 RU more.
Gerd: I have no vender preference. I care about performance per watt per dollar. That is the only metric I use to rate vendors of any technology today. Sun does very well on performance per watt. Per dollar part. Well. The reason why X25-E stands out in the SSD arena is that it is $12/GB at 2W active and gives you 33K read IOPs. Compared to Stec Mach8 at $54/GB at 2W active. Now that the F5100 FMODs are out, it is over $90/GB, while I am not convinced that per DIMM, it is actually faster than the Stec even. X25-E is a very decent drive, and the only shortcoming(ie, lack of Supercapacitor) will be taken care of in the next revision, which could be here anytime now(Q4 2009 according to intel SSD roadmap). Lastly, wanting Sun to prosper doesn't mean I have to subsidize Sun out of my own pocket at whatever price Sun asks for. That is just dumb if you ask me. I said in a previous post that I would subsidize 25% premium over Dell/HP gear, not 1000% like the F5100.
Sorry, he point that you dont care about rack space is a nice example that you don't really know what the problems of IT managers are. Rack space is a precious resource in many datacenters. But that
PS: Thought you didn't want to write here anymore ?
Joerg:
So far you have given me a ton of headaches, provoking me at very turn. You have some serious issues. I don't know about rack space? I do. They are worth about 15 dollars a U per month given current market prices of $600 a rack without electricity.(As low as $400 a rack at certain colocation facilities) So over a 3 year amortization period and current interest rate, it is worth $500/U of space savings. That's how much the RUs are worth. So the F5100 at 1U would give me 2Us worth of savings over a 3U vertically mounted SSD array using X25-E. That's $1000 worth of savings. I will give that to you. Now explain the rest of the premium to me.
Sorry, i should say it more precisely to you: In corporate datacenters already filled with to the top with equipment.
Giving how hard you even insist on your point after writing that you won't write here anymore may lead to the assumption that you have a strong sense of a mission to enlighten the world with the shine of your infinite wisdom and to throw all into the darkness, who doesn't think your way. As Gerd wrote: When you are so much better than all other engineers, i can't wait until you start your own business and deliver first-class, enterprise capable and ultra-cheap products, of course just consisting out of Intel products. PS: You are correct, i don't take you serious any longer ... PS: Oh, i thought, you didn't want to write here anymore
Joerg:
You wrote this article to target me in the first place after I commented on StorageMojo that the Stec and F5100/FMODs wouldn't be competitive against Intel's volume economics. That's how it started. Every time, I throw numbers at you, you dodge the question, attacking my personal credibility or image instead. I will still visit c0t0d0s0 from time to time to keep up with ZFS progress. I care about ZFS. I care about Solaris. I really don't give a crap about a German Sun Salesman who really can't deal with numbers, but tries to provoke opposite opinions. Most of your arguments against X25-E are simply retarded. Intel knows the only shortcoming of the X25-E(supercapacitor), Q4 2009 is when they will fix it according to the roadmap, so your arguments would be irrelevant in a few months. You care about ZFS as much as I do, can't we just freaking pretend that your professional obligation doesn't come in between your blogs and your viewers?
Assuming that Sun will design a 3U vertical mount SSD array is probably wrong. So let's compare that to 3x Dell MD1120s with split mode operation is probably more appropriate. 5 RUs of savings, or $2500 over a 3 year lifespan. the 3x MD1120s are worth about $6K. So $8.5K to have the infrastructure to support 72x hot swap X25-E G1/G2s, space costs included.
Sorry, Sir, you just wasted a lot of IOPS ... 24*35.000 = 800.000 IOPS. But you can just connect two SAS HBA (two EMM with one IN-Port each, the other port is used for connecting other enclosures) ... each one delivers 150.000 IOPS. Well ... to be exact, you wasted 500.000 IOPS.
You do know that the MD1120 has split mode? It allows each HBA to control 12x SATA ports right?
Look at F5100, it is just 4x SAS Expander chip, each controlling 20x SATA FMODs. I have yet to find specification if the SAS Expander chip is SAS 2.0 or not. So in reality, it is just 4x SAS Expanders crammed into 1U. Nothing more than that. Arguing with you from a technical perspective is definitely fruitless.
Sorry, there was an error in my calculation: 24*35.000 are 840.000 ... i did forget to type the 4 into bc. So i have to correct my calculation
300.000 IOPS (via two HBA) to get access to 840.000 IOPS. 540.000 wasted ... or at with three enclosures: 1.620.000 IOPS Yup, i know about the split mode. You still have 2 Host ports. Let's split the device: Okay, let's calculate that again: 12 disks controlled by one HBA .... 150.000 IOPS for wait ... 12*35.000 ... 420.000. Wasted: 270.000. We have 6 HBA connections to 6 Splits. Wait ... 6*150.000 ... you have 900.000 IOPS ... you've wasted 1.620.000 IOPS .Strange. Heck ... absolutely the same number. How could this be the case. Furtherdown you limited all your SSD do press their data through 6*4*3 = 72 GBit. Given that a sigle SAS channel is said to deliver 250 MByte second we end up at 6000 MByte/s. 120000 Megabytes/s wasted. BTW: Maybe there are "just" 4 SAS Expanders in the box ... but the device yielded 12,6 GBytes per second in a benchmark (http://blogs.sun.com/BestPerf/entry/1_6_million_4k_iops) in reality. Looks like it's absolutly fruitless to discuss with you on the basis of logic.
Sure, now that the numbers come out, let's hear my side of the story.
First, let's go through the F5100 design. Without specification pdf, you can pretty much guess what it is just by staring at the F5100 PCB. 4X SAS Expanders controlling 20 FMODs each. With 4x SAS ports from each SAS Expander(totalling 16x 4x SAS ports). So it is a 36port SAS expander IC, probably SAS 1.0 judging from the fact that the best performance comes from 5 FMODs per domain. So you need 8x SAS HBAs each with dual 4x SAS external connectors to drive 16x SAS connection ports with 5 FMODs each on the F5100. That's how you get 1.6 Million IOPs, with 8x SAS HBAs each delivering 200K IOPs through 5 SATA FMODs per SAS port, which implies that Sun 7410 can't be used with the F5100 to get 1.6 Million IOPs. Not many Sun systems would give you 8x PCI-e slots just to drive the F5100. That is why the benchmark was probably done on the T5440. The best and most probable hardware configuration is a set of 4x HBA configuration driving 40/80 FMODs. That will give you 800K IOPs through 4x HBAs, with each HBA driving 20 FMODs, 10 with each SAS port. This configuration is comparable with Dell's 12x SATA port per SAS expander, where 3x MD1120s driven by 6 HBAs would give you roughly the same IOPs. Now that the numbers are out of the gate, you wanna do a $/IOPs comparison?
Lol, just read the system configuration of the 1.6 Million IOPs. It is driven by 4 T5240s with 4 HBAs each. So it is an aggregate score, not a single system score like I had hoped. Plus it took 16 HBAs. Twice as much as I expected.
Oh yeah, and just forgetting that you can plug multiple systems to fully load the F5100. .How about using the F5100 from two or three systems in parallel?
In commercial IT it's really usual to use a storage system from several system: Based on your logic any larger storage system wouldn't make sense because you can't load it from a single system. PS: Oh, i thought you didn't want to write here anymore
That is the greatest design right? Needing 4 systems to drive one RU piece of storage, so no single system can get the advertised 1.6million IOPS and 1.92TB storage because no single system has enough PCI-e slots to have 16 HBAs.
You do know the difference between a single monolithic 1.92TB flash giving 1.6Million IOPs vs 4 systems, each having 480GB of flash and 400K IOPs right? The only system that can drive the F5100 with 16 HBAs will be 8 Socket Nehalem-EXs because it will have 144 lanes of PCI-e 2.0, that's why I am excited about it. Every time you lose the argument, you don't want me to be talking anymore? Anyone with a brain on his shoulder knows the F5100 is just a change of form factor, cramming 4x SAS expanders and 80x SSDs into 1U, but that is too much, as not a single system in the world can drive it yet. If there is a system capable of driving 16 HBAs at the same time, it can also drive other SAS JBODs filled with X25-Es, so there really isn't a competitive advantage for SODIMM form factor.
No ... i don't want you to shut up ... to be honest, there are many questions that matters more to me. I will answer you comments, when i have some spare time. At the moment i try to regenerate my voice from a presentation i've made a few minutes ago. I just want to remember you of the point that you've written that you don't to write here any longer
But there is a question that is haunting me: It's my blog. So i have any reason to stay in this dispute. But what's your incentive? Why do you stay that long in my blog ... after i just insulted you, arguments are just fruitless. Can't live with loosing the argument? At the moment i'm just waiting for an answer like the one that got deleted at other sites. BTW: At the moment the biggest insult came from you, you called me a german computer sales guy So far i didn't saw an argument, that i've lost ... everytime i tell you that there may be different views in corporate computing, you change the topic. And of course even in this you find a way to put in a plug for your beloved Nehalem-EX With every comment you make a fool out of your self. Just the comment "there is no single system able to house 16 HBA" shows how limited your horizon is. Did you ever looked at the larger systems. An M9000 is able to drive 16 HBA, an M8000 as well. A M5000 with the I/O Expansion Unit. An M4000 as well, but the PCIe busses would have to do a lot of work. In the Power Series there are systems as well with this number of PCIe slots. Integrity systems from HP with the Itanium of your beloved and prefered vendor Intel is able to house 8 PCI sas connections in the midrange systems and more in the Superdome series. And do you know how future Sun systems will look like? Well ... i do The point against the F5100, that you can't load it with smaller systems you could use as well against every system that's capable to provide more than a single server can consume. As i wrote in my last comment: Let's tell EMC, LSI, IBM, HDS that all you need are JBODs with 8 slots I showed to you that your MD1120 configuration is just nonsense, as you don't get the IOPS from the X25E into the server. Given the fact that there is a limit of 140.000 introduced by the HBA (it can't get faster than that), you could only place 4 SSD in each of the splits Furthermore i asking my self under which stone you lived the last years. Pretty much the complete industry talks about space and power consumption of components. So dense storage systems are really interesting to many customers. But this matches some of your comments, where you denied the reasoning of quad socket systems for virtualisation. BTW: Now you are expressing, that you can wait for 8-socket nehalem systems You are so focussed on your own professional area, that you can't see that the prices of a rack unit in a colo facility may be very uninteresting for a customer who doesn't like to run it's central SAP system outside of it's own datacenter. Or situations where you earn your money with putting as much customers as possible in your datacenter, because you earn your money with the service, not the rack unit, and rack units are just a cost factor. Many customers really have problems with the available space in their DC. Given that your Dell+X25e has to suffer the same HBA problems, you would need 16 splits, thus 8 DM1120, thus 16 rack units. 15 RackUnits are quite a difference. Of course a F5100 is overkill when you have just a two socket server, but that's the reason why there is something like the F20 SAS card with 4 of this Fmods (Oracle uses them in the Exabyte V2 machine) It's not that way, that your ideas are inherently nonsense, but your way of thinking is that concentrated to the edge of your nose, that you can't see the point that there are customers that have different requirements and the inability to understand, that product engineering consists out of more than just looking at datasheets and plugging stuff together. I call this armchair engineering. Well, perhaps i should just trust you ... because you are pro (as you stated here ... http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?p=6235840 ... yes i know that's a joke tshirt, but something tells me, that you meant this serious). By the way: I've won a bottle of wine ... i've won the bet, that you will reappear today PS: Just for completeness - I thought you wrote, that you didn't want to write here anymore ...
Yes, I am a paid Intel schill. Do you know what a schill is? Someone who pretends that they are not getting paid. Do you not understand the sarcasm?
I don't understand the reason why the hell you dig up the posts I posted at WebHostingTalk. To prove what? What I said in WebHostingTalk is consistent with what I am saying here too. I buy Intel processors because it offers the most performance per watt per dollar. Doesn't make me an Intel schill right? I buy Intel X25-Ms too because it is cheap, fast, and I can stack 20x of them to cache my 2TB workload. Calling someone a schill is almost indication of loss of reasoning. I haven't called you a German retard now have I? There is the deal: if you stop posting comments attacking my logic or my image, I will stop posting here. And we can stop right here. You don't respond to this, and I won't respond back. Sun can still lose 100 million a month and leech off of Oracle earnings, it is not my problem. Deal?
Okay, as long as you can accept that there are people that look at problems with a different logic, that is as least as valid as yours because they are looking at different angles to the same problem getting to different solutions that are as valid as your solution. Given the comments you made, it didn't look that you are able to accept this. This is the only thing i've tried to explain to you.
To stop this conversation from all sides, i will deactivate the comment feature for this article now.
Sorry, TS,
I don't get it... Why you are so keen on Sun implementing systems with storage of your preferred vendor? If you don't accept Sun's decision on their product pick, why don't you go to another vendor and purchase a system, that fits your needs better. Or, on the other hand, if you want Sun to prosper, then you should be willing to pay a premium for the appliance-software and accept the product pick. Maybe the third alternative would be to build a business on your own - at least you seem to believe to know better than many development engineers. Gerd
I'm using X25-M for l2arc for several reasons.
1. its cheap, and fast 2. it protects itself somewhat with write throttling if you write too much at once 3. its just L2ARC, so if it fails after 1-2 years instead of 5 years, thats fine, I can yank it out and replace it.
Yes, you can use an X25M for L2ARC when you exactly know that your disks won't reach the 20 GB per day limit or when you life with swapping it often and changing performance characteristics (different performance with or without write throttling).
But you have to see it in the context that we talked about the 7310/7410 storage systems from Sun, a system with a half petabyte of capacity that is used for core jobs in an enterprise. And there the story looks completely different. |
+1The LKSF bookThe book with the consolidated Less known Solaris Tutorials is available for download here
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Very nice, I like the way the
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cture. Did you use any filter
s not to make the green [...]
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I realy love the image.
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n flickr. I will add this as p
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